One of the things I like about the role-playing community is that it allows me to engage in more "sub-creation" as Tolkien and others have called it. I am curious to the views others in this community may have to the legend in the appendix to "Quendi and Eldar" found in HoMe XI "The War of the Jewels" pg 420, Houghton Mifflin edition.  It describes the awakening of the Elves and mentions only 144 original Elves. However, it also mentions a note by Tolkien that this was a surviving "Elvish fairytale or child's tale, mingled with counting lore". How literally do you interpret this legend as an actual count of the number of Elves first awakening rather than just a folk explanation of the proportion of the various houses? To me to take the count of 144 literally would present great difficulties in explaining the later numbers of the Quendi.  

Thanks,

Hi Bernie,

that's an interesting question. Honestly - I have not thought about it in detail. It depends on a calculation of the time of Awakening until the separation. This time compared with the average generational span should give us an idea whether this "144" is more or less historically acceptable or has to be adjusted (but retaining the numerical relations between the three kindreds).

Cheers

Thomas

Hello Thomas,

 Thank you for your replies. According to "The Grey Annals" in HoMe XI the Elves awoke in VY 1050 and the Eldar began their march west around VY 1105 which would be a little over 550 years of the sun. In that time I suppose a few generations could have been born but that wouldn't fit the pattern of the Elves that we actually know of. For example, Feanor and Fingolfin were, I believe, 2nd generation Elves and they were born in Aman. 

 The reason I'm asking this is because I made a spreadsheet presenting the population of the Elves in the First Age. Naturally it's full of assumptions the first of which is the starting population which I have set at not 144 but 144 squared or 20736. Anyway I plan on presenting this when ready but I thought I'd ask for feedback on my first assumption. If it were false everything else would fall apart. :>   

Hi Bernie,

Previously Bernie Roessler wrote:

Thank you for your replies. According to "The Grey Annals" in HoMe XI the Elves awoke in VY 1050 and the Eldar began their march west around VY 1105 which would be a little over 550 years of the sun. In that time I suppose a few generations could have been born but that wouldn't fit the pattern of the Elves that we actually know of. For example, Feanor and Fingolfin were, I believe, 2nd generation Elves and they were born in Aman. 

 The reason I'm asking this is because I made a spreadsheet presenting the population of the Elves in the First Age. Naturally it's full of assumptions the first of which is the starting population which I have set at not 144 but 144 squared or 20736. Anyway I plan on presenting this when ready but I thought I'd ask for feedback on my first assumption. If it were false everything else would fall apart. :>

Hello Thomas,

The discussion of the early generations of the Elves would be very interesting to me. Unfortunately the evanescent nature of internet discussions makes them hard to find and is one reason I've not entered very many. Thanks for the invitation for further discussion. It sounds though that the consensus is my assumptions are wrong. I’ll try and put something coherent together and send it to you when ready. In the meantime, however, since there is a Dwarven issue coming up I think I’ll put down some ideas I’ve had concerning them down first and send them your way.

Thanks

Bernie

Hi Bernie,

I'm be very interested in your results and look forward to your dwarven contribution for OM4!

Cheers

Thomas